Is it okay to start writing a story without planning anything?

I've started writing very short (one paragraph) stories, posting some on Reddit. I haven't ever written for fun before though, so I don't know if I'm developing a bad habit or if it really doesn't matter.

My inspiration for writing these short stories are usually just an emotion. I don't know what I will write about until I just do it, and I start putting words down and create a story on the fly.

I feel like if I continue doing this and transition into longer pieces - just writing and not planning ahead - my stories won't make any sense.

Am I just being stupid, or should I start organizing my thoughts before writing?

EDIT: Thanks for the advice guys, I appreciate it :)

[–]ChrisGrant 97 points 16 hours ago

There has been some good advice in this thread already, so just allow me to say this one piece of advice:

Never use the word "worser" again.

     

[–]captaincrawdad 30 points 15 hours ago

That is very... alarming.

      

[–]Dogpool 15 points 14 hours ago

I think you could use 'worser' is dialogue, or incompetent narration.

      

[–]xxVb 11 points 12 hours ago

That's a completely cromulent use of it.

      

[–]iAescSome Guy 8 points 8 hours ago

This kind of advice will only embiggen already bad habits.

      

[+]IAMAfortunecookieAMA comment score below threshold  (1 child)

[–]da_buckster 27 points 15 hours ago

Don't let the boy come into danger only to be saved at the last minute by the female knight. If it starts to go this way, have her stand idly by while he is forced to grow up and get himself out of the mess. Sink or swim.

     

[–]danceswithroninEditor++ 22 points 15 hours ago

If it starts to go this way, have her stand idly by while he is forced to grow up and get himself out of the mess. Sink or swim.

For real.

Squire: "Why didn't you save me?!"

Knight: "Not the way the world works, boy. And the sooner you learn that lesson, the longer you'll get to live in it."

      

[–]MichaelNevermore 2 points 5 hours ago

I don't think the problem is cliches, but rather too much cliche. Try to imagine what would realistically happen in whatever situation you're writing about, and don't push it too far beyond that. Until the climax, of course; the climax should be especially intense.

Example: The movie Armageddon. There were so many moments of "Oh my gosh the characters are about to die and the whole world will end!" that by the time you get to the actual climax, there's no suspense. It's so climactic that it's anti-climactic.

In conclusion (if TL;DR): Don't have so many climaxes that the climax becomes unsuspenseful. Err... then again, there are no rules in writing and this is all in my opinion. Keep that in mind so you can develop your own unique voice in writing.

Anyway, sounds like a great idea that's unique enough (despite being a "typical" fantasy genre) that it will do well. Good luck!

      

[–]Dude_In_The_Hatch 54 points 17 hours ago

Don't avoid cliches. Turn them on their head. Some of the funnest moments in books and movies are when someone can take a cliche plot device or scenario and improve on it in some interesting way. I don't have a good example of this at the moment, but you know what I mean.

     

[–]soundslikeponies 43 points 16 hours ago

Star wars'

Leia: I love you.

Han: I know.

Is one that comes to mind. Moonrise Kingdom is basically one gigantic string of anti-cliches.

      

[–]Dakhma 11 points 14 hours ago*

The great thing about that scene is how much it lends to Hans' characterization. Brilliant bit.

      

[–]cecinestpasreddit 12 points 14 hours ago

Also an unscripted moment, if I remember. He just decided to say that over the lucas-written line.

Which, if OP reads down this far, is another good point.

I am getting tired of reading all of the prescripted conversations in fantasy ("its evil!" "I can use it for good!" "Lost to the ages" "unkown horror" "Ultimate Evil", etc.). Have the characters have original conversations. Give us a new perspective on fantasy thats not just from the king's point of view, or the war room.

      

[–]Marty_McFly_Jr 7 points 12 hours ago

The original line was something like "Remember that, because I'll be back." Not terrible and still a bit of a cliche breaker, but nowhere near as classic or as quotable as "I know."

      

[–]harvardscholar 16 points 15 hours ago

The Princess Bride is a marvelous example, imo.

      

[–]gibbly 11 points 13 hours ago

I took a fantasy creative writing class in university and one guy wrote a story about a lazy, stoner vampire who was more worried about getting Cheetos than blood. It was brilliant and hilarious when a group of dark, brooding, leather-clad vampires came to take him away and he was too stoned to care.

      

[–]UrbanGimli 18 points 16 hours ago

I think this is the winning advice. When I find myself getting discouraged with my scenarios I think to myself "What would Whedon do?" and by using that lens, I find I can turn the scene upside down and backwards which is very satisfying and fun. I don't write medieval fantasy but if I were my Dragons would not breathe fire, my Knight would ride a smart ass but wise horse that was really an old wizard who got bested in a wizard duel. My Knight would have a tricked out set of armor that lets him cheat at winning. His Sword would have a mechanism that lets it break on purpose so he can throw his opponents off guard...this is just rambling ...but anything you can do to go left when the majority of the genre is going right is going to help take your story places the reader isn't expecting. Then its up to fans of the genre who pick up your book to decide if they like those changes.

      

[–]evilscary 6 points 16 hours ago

A well-deconstructed cliche can be a real asset to a story, but just be careful how you do it.

      

[–]hammerjam 5 points 15 hours ago

I think the easiest mistake people make in this regard is allowing the readers to make assumptions about the fantasy world you're making. They automatically assume your world has the same rules as Middle Earth or Westeros and compare your world to those already successful and established worlds. Don't give the readers a chance to do that. For example, if you have elves, don't make them Tolkien elves, make them evil repulsive old school Nordic elves. Be sure to establish early on how different your world is and be careful when looking for inspiration.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 4 points 15 hours ago

And the Drow and every other "dark elf" type out there doesn't already do that?

      

[–]xxVb 1 point 11 hours ago

Tolkien and everyone in his wake made the elves human-sized, if not taller than that. Dark elves tend to just be the emo younger brother of these same tall elves.

By contrast, old school Nordic elves are typically more akin to fairies or gnomes, depending on the tradition. They're averse to humans, but might cause mischief in human populations or appear to people who are alone (typically in order to create mischief).

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 3 points 11 hours ago

Drow aren't the emo younger brothers of Tolkien's elves, despite what R.A. Salvatore would have you believe. They're slavers, murderers, and practitioners of evil magics. They're a lot closer to the Fair Folk than you think.

      

[–]redheadedalex 9 points 11 hours ago

We got ourselves a nerdy fucking argument going on here, boys.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 3 points 11 hours ago*

Isn't that what the Internet is for?

Edit: I can spell, I swear!

      

[–]ThundarrtheRedditor 3 points 10 hours ago

Tolkien Elves vs Drow and a Conan reference in a name to boot! I'd put my money on Atlantean Steel. His credentials check out.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 3 points 10 hours ago

Up Vote in the name of Crom!

      

[–]notevenkiddin 3 points 10 hours ago

Terry Pratchett subverted our Tolkienian elf expectations really well.

      

[–]Sneakyspeed 1 point 8 hours ago

I like that a comedy series has the most evil and vile elves in existence.

      

[–]Tonkarz 2 points 6 hours ago

Well like Prachett said serious is not the opposite of funny, unfunny is the opposite of funny.

      

[–]ApolloDeus 11 points 16 hours ago

Joe Abercrombie does this perfectly. The wise old wizard is actually a dick.

      

[–]chrisfagan 10 points 15 hours ago

Everyone is a dick.

      

[–]Gifos 7 points 15 hours ago

Oh come on, there's this one guy who's really- oh nope, nevermind, he was a dick all along.

      

[–]alfonsoelsabio 6 points 13 hours ago

It's dicks all the way down.

      

[–]runevaultNovice Writer 4 points 14 hours ago

The problem here is Grimdark fantasy is the norm now, and likely the worst way to stand out. not to say Ambercrombie is a bad writer, just that targeting a similar sort of book is a bad choice for what he's asking :P

      

[–]TheFarnell 13 points 15 hours ago

This is great advice. Years of being exposed to similar formulae will leave your readers with certain easy-to-identify and easy-to-exploit notions that are easy to exploit if you add a touch of pragmatic realism.

Big build-up for a swordfight? Have it end in a single, perfect blow immediately when it starts.

Legendary, thousand-year-old sword? Have "modern" swords handily outperform it in terms of weight and durability.

Your hero and her squire come face to face with a significantly stronger or more numerous opponent? Have them run away instead of face suicidal odds. You can show heroics in a daring retreat or escape just as much as in a direct confrontation.

Do you have some magical artifact of considerable power, but that can only be used once? Have your hero use it... and completely miss, because they have no experience in using it. Better yet - maybe after all those years its source of power is simply depleted, and just doesn't work at all, for reasons your hero will never understand.

That "crazy old man" living like a hermit on the mountaintop? He's really just a old man, suffering from dementia. Maybe he's incontinent, too, but his insane ramblings don't actually have some deep wisdom or knowledge to them.

The possibilities are endless. Just make sure not to make your whole story a series of deconstructions of tropes, though, because then your readers will come to expect it and it'll kill their interest in your story.

      

[–]gibbly 3 points 13 hours ago

I like the crazy old man idea. Sending the hero on a wild goose chase for nothing.

      

[–]Scodo 2 points 10 hours ago

As far as the big buildup to a swordfight that gets ended in a single blow goes goes, I think The Bonehunters by Steven Erikson has the best one of those I've ever seen. There's several moments like that littered throughout the Malazan series.

      

[–]picardcake 1 point 12 hours ago

Great ideas in here, thanks.

      

[–]Tonkarz 1 point 6 hours ago

I think this is good advice, but just make sure you don't get too clever. For example, the swordfight with a big buildup still has to be satisfying when resolved. You still have to exercise good judgement about what works and what doesn't.

      

[–]TheFarnell 1 point 6 hours ago

You're right. I always remember the final fight of Equilibrium as an excellent way to do this. They set up the top lieutenant as this equal to the hero, the hero destroys him in a few seconds, and then the real fight turns out to be with the pencil-pusher evil boss.

      

[–]Yevla 2 points 14 hours ago

Perhaps the boy turns out to be a much better and more enthusiastic villain than she'll ever be?

      

[–]washer 1 point 9 hours ago

Good example of humorously subverting genre expectations. In Tailchaser's Song, the main characters, who are cats, go to meet the cat queen in a scene reminiscent of the Fellowship's meeting Galadriel. The cats find their regal queen licking herself.

      

[–]tenduril 1 point 7 hours ago

RA Salvatore is best for this in my opinion.

      

[–]drzowie 34 points 17 hours ago

Don't fall prey to the quasi-medievalism of the Tolkien-wannabe echo chamber.

     

[–]AtlanteanSteel 13 points 14 hours ago*

Except that nobody reads those. There's a reason that Tales of the Otori didn't sell beyond The Nightingale Floor. There's a reason nobody's raving about The Ear, The Eye, and The Arm. People want medival fantasy. People buy and people read Tolkien inspired stuff.

Go into any Barnes and Noble and look at what covers the shelves, and look what flies off.

I have a novel heavily inspired by Himalayan/Indian religion and mythology, and I'm the only guy I know who owns a copy, and I can't even remember it's title admittedly, which is sad, because it looks Amazing.

Asides, if he already has Knights he's already got that theme going on. Knight has a direct connotation of armor, chivalry, and a European feudal system. Changing it to reflect a different world-culture is a good idea for somebody ingrained in the genre, but for the average reader who's there to buy a Christmas gift for their brother-in-law who plays D&D this isn't a good option.

OP needs to choose who his audience is first: new and casual fantasy readers, or hardcore followers of the genre.

Edit: by "those" in the first sentence I mean "non-medival/Tolkien-inspired fantasy novels".

      

[–]mgallowglas 7 points 14 hours ago

On the other side of that coin, we have Glen Cook's The Black Company and Erikson and Esslemont's Malazan books. These are not your standard medieval fantasy, yet both series have a strong following. While not as strong as say Martin or Jordan, their success (Especially with Black Company being decades old and still selling well) indicates that a readership exists for books that stretch beyond the "industry standard."

Though I do agree that the more a book departs from the expected norm, the smaller its audience is going to be. Still, it may not be as challenging to find as it used to be.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 3 points 14 hours ago

The Black Company is very impressive, and was one of the few fantasy novels I found I had the stomach for after developing a taste for Sword and Sorcery.

I'm not saying there isn't a market for non-Tolkien fantasy, I just think it's a matter of audience choice. I mean, does MisterUgg want to make lightly seasoned grilled chicken for dinner, or does he want to make spicy chicken curry with raisins and cashews?

      

[–]Scodo 1 point 10 hours ago

With Malazan you actually get a great feel for the size of the world. The land and mysterious history of the elder races is so rich that you keep reading to uncover more of the secrets just as much as you do for the advancement of the plot.

      

[–]drzowie 5 points 14 hours ago

I suppose. Through the 1980s and 1990s it seemed there was an endless succession of Middle-Earth/Earthsea/Pern remixes -- and it seems that the trend continues. Pratchett made gigantic barnloads of hay by lampooning the genre, of course. But then, he's Pratchett.

From TheyCallMeMisterUgg's plot synopsis it looks like a pretty interesting inversion of the genre.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 5 points 14 hours ago

Exactly! There's sadly a lot of crap in the Fantasy genre. Especially almost all of the Female-Protagonist-(horror staple monster)-Hunter type books. Thankfully he's not going that route. This sadly I think leads to a lot of buried gems.

An example is a book a skimmed the other day that looked like another hipster-spawned steam punk novel with some horror mixed in, and it had a positive remark by Neil Gaiman on the cover. I hadn't expected that at all, and it's title got added to my ever growing wish list of books to read.

      

[–]vraiment_cute 2 points 13 hours ago

Can you share the name of that book if you can?

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 2 points 13 hours ago

EDIT: That book!

I think it was Anno Dracula.

      

[–]ThisIsNotAMonkey 3 points 13 hours ago

would that be the zelanzey novel you're referring to? lord of light or something like that? edit: spellz in r/writing. I'm a monster

      

[–]drzowie 2 points 13 hours ago

You're thinking of Lord of Light, a wonderful remix of the Vedas using technology to justify the magical bits. "His name was Mahasamatman, but he preferred to drop the Maha- and the -atman, and go by Sam." Or something like that.

      

[–]AmeteurOpinions 2 points 9 hours ago

Across the Nightengale Floor had a perfectly good world, it was the characters that stunk. I wouldn't have wanted to read the rest of the series either after chugging through book 1.

      

[–]tishtok 2 points 9 hours ago

I really liked the ear, the eye, and the arm as a child!! :P

      

[–]Turtlenuts 2 points 8 hours ago

I remember reading "The Ear, The Eye, and The Arm" when I was a kid! Maybe I should track it down in my piles of books.

      

[–]RavisheyNovice Writer 2 points 7 hours ago

Just wanted to know the title of that Himalayan/Indian inspired novel; I actually am writing one currently almost in the same vein and I want to see parallels and usage of symbolism. From your comment its kind of disheartening to think that noone would want to read it

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 2 points 6 hours ago

ok, I got it!!! It's actually Tibetan, so I was a bit off. And I'm not saying no one will read it. Holy shit, I want to read it! But I'm saying that wide audience is different than niche.

It's a lot like beer. I like imperial stouts and porters, craft brew stuff. I joke with my friends that I like my beer like I like my metal "Black, bitter, cold, and preferably from Europe." But 80% of the world doesn't like black, bitter beer. And for them a Coors or a PBR is just fine, and that's ok. In the meantime I'll still have an Old Rasputin on Friday nights while reading whatever I have in my hands.

There is DEFINITELY a market for NON-Tolkien NON-medival Fantasy. I cannot BEGIN to tell you how many blogs I read lamenting the lack of diverse world culture in Fantasy or non-Caucasian protagonists. It's why fantasy so often gets accused of implied racism (as opposed to older sword and sorcery works that had blatant racism).

What I'm saying is not everyone reads fantasy. Not everyone plays Skyrim more than a few hours. Not everyone knows Conan is from Cimmeria. Not everyone has read C.L. Moore. Not everyone owns the 70s Rankin-Bass Hobbit on DVD. Some people just go into a bookstore and go "Hey! My roommate played Dragon Age! I bet he'd like this for his birthday!" most people do I think. I'll be honest, I have no idea what to get my father in law for Father's day. But I know he likes Ham radios. I bet I could start there.

tl;dr

The book is Blackdog by K.V. Johansen. It's also Tibetan, not Himalayan/Indian.

      

[–]RavisheyNovice Writer 2 points 5 hours ago

Thanks for replying. I usually don't read/write a lot of fantasy (and so I don't get bogged down in the mindset of Western, Germanic or medieval topics), but I find it to be the easiest to convey my ideas. The idea of appealing to a niche audience is enticing, and certainly gives me a sense of freedom as to how I could approach the material!

Thanks for clarifying, sometimes I wonder whether or not to actually go ahead and publish the story, because in my mind I think it just won't sell and no one reads my story (not that I care about sales, I just want people to read it).

I may go and look at this book. Thanks again!

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 2 points 3 hours ago

You're very welcome!!! I think you should pursue and publish it.

Listen, Melville And Shelley (Mary, not Percy) were both crushed by critics in their day. Well guess what? I'm sure if they could, both of those two would piss on their critics' graves. Preferably while dancing.

This is where once again we need to consider the motivation behind writing what you write: are you writing for a paycheck or a passion? If you have a story to tell, tell it. If you get rich along the way, kudos to you and Stephen King both. If you stay dirt poor, then Eh, fuck it! You still may end up being taught in college classes 100 years from now, and that's better than having not tried at all. I mean, maybe you're the guy that'll kick off a whole new fantasy sub-genre craze! We won't know until you try.

      

[–]iamadogforreal 0 points 12 hours ago*

Except that nobody reads those.

Anathem, Lord of Light, A Canticle for Leibowitz, and Book of the New Sun would like to have a word with you. Granted, they're all somewhat or overtly post-apocalyptical, but that seems like the best way to not do LOTR-style fantasy.

The problem is once you start writing weird fantasy and have any element of technology in it other than blacksmithing, you're now writing sci-fi. Well, that's not a problem to me, but I wonder if your typical fantasy addict would bother reading the above books. Sci-fi nerds certainly have. Fantasy seems so incredibly limiting and dogmatic because its hard to get past the D&D/LOTR style stories or stories based on familiar myth like vampires, werewolves, spirits, magic, etc. If it feels remotely modern or new, its suddenly sci-fi, which turns off fantasy readers. So Ye Olde Sword and Shield story it is.

      

[–]joeldg 1 point 11 hours ago

Anathem, holy crap ... I never thought of Anathem as a fantasy, and now that I think of it, it kind of is!

      

[–]Marty_McFly_Jr 3 points 12 hours ago

I would love to read about a fantasy world that is experimenting with electricity and technology. The first cameras being developed. Gunpowder. Electric lights. Maybe they'll never progress beyond that point, but they don't need to.

Somewhere in the most obscure Lord of the Rings backstory, isn't there a reference to an ancient Elf spaceship that was able to exit the atmosphere? Or am I remembering something that never happened? It would be a fine line between fantasy and sci-fi, but genre bending is good in my opinion, and if you were writing this you wouldn't go so far as to have anything modern. 19th century level of technology at most against a feudal society background.

      

[–]drzowie 3 points 12 hours ago

A Canticle for Leibowitz did an interesting job of that. Pratchett's later stuff is all about new technologies changing the Discworld. Pern has elements of lost technology being rediscovered. Majipoor (Lord Valentine's Castle) does an interesting job of mixing technology and human/wind power, using the excuse that there isn't much metal around. The Golden Compass takes place (mostly) in a world where electricity is new.

      

[–]iamadogforreal 2 points 12 hours ago*

Book of the New Sun is fun like that. Instead of them discovering this stuff, they're rediscovering it since the fall of their civilization long ago. Agreed, we need more of this.

I've been playing with this Camelot story in my head where the reader sees how much of a charlatan Merlin is, as he's clearly using electricity and gun powder, but because he's so socially savvy and because of how people think of wizards, he's actually very effective in helping Arthur politically. I would love to see a talented person do a Camelot story that's all realpolitik, practical stage magic, and exploiting religious extremism.

      

[–]notevenkiddin 3 points 10 hours ago*

If you haven't, you should read A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

      

[–]GeneralLeeFrank 2 points 5 hours ago

T.H. White's Merlin often referred to a to a lot of anachronisms, like electricity or something.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 3 points 11 hours ago

There was a good children's fantasy novel I read once set in a tricorn hat world called Monster Blood Tattoo. It was about an orphan chosen to be a lamplighter in a big city.

      

[–]Dakhma 15 points 17 hours ago

Well developed characters,and edited really well.

     

[–]BLUNTYEYEDFOOL 14 points 16 hours ago

humour - Apart from Pratchett and Gaiman, nobody appears willing to try.

     

[–]cecinestpasreddit 9 points 14 hours ago

Piers Anthony does fairly well at this too, if you can stand the puns.

      

[–]SuspiciousCurtains 5 points 13 hours ago

And the implied pederasty.

      

[–]cecinestpasreddit 2 points 12 hours ago

Yeah that does get a little weird. I didn't mind it much when I was a kid, though.

      

[–]Conrolder 4 points 13 hours ago

John Scalzi's great for humor, if you're willing to talk about science fiction.

      

[–]BLUNTYEYEDFOOL 4 points 13 hours ago

Banks too was funny. (Sigh)

      

[–]Xephyron 2 points 12 hours ago

Dammit, just teared up a bit.

      

[–]MrLinderman 6 points 16 hours ago

Martin does. Ever read any of the one liners of Stannis or Dolorous Edd?

      

[–]domdest 10 points 14 hours ago

"Hot Pie!" yelled Hot Pie.

"Hodor," said Hodor.

      

[–]Will_Power 7 points 14 hours ago

To say nothing of Tyrion.

      

[–]BLUNTYEYEDFOOL 3 points 16 hours ago

Not readily, but I think Cersei came out with a few zingers alright. Good one.

      

[–]winnipegtommy 2 points 11 hours ago

Sir Apropos of Nothing by Peter David is very funny and all about turning the cliches on their head.

      

[–]TheFarnell 8 points 13 hours ago

WARNING - TVTROPES LINK

Start here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fantasy

Defy, subvert, or otherwise play with as many of these as possible.

     

[–]smallstone 7 points 15 hours ago

Read a lot, but read a lot of books that are NOT fantasy! Sometimes ideas from other genres may sneak into your fantasy writing.

     

[–]gugulo 1 point 11 hours ago

Sometimes even different movie genres can give you a new idea.

      

[–]risker1980 1 point 11 hours ago

I utterly agree with this. Here's some other advice that no one on writing forums mentions - listen to comedians. Jokes require presenting the norm but subverting it, all while still maintaining a link to the original trope. Getting in to that mindset helps tear out cliche's, or present them in unusual ways. For reals, get in a comedian state of mind.

      

[–]Conrolder 5 points 16 hours ago

As a guy who's been attempting to write a book for over a year and a half, and now has 28 pages, I can say that at least to some extent, I feel your pain.

But your story sounds awesome. I'd love to read it when it's out. You already, from the sound of it, have a new idea and story line with which to present an important social dynamic we often have problems with in this day and age. It sounds great.

My advice (which should be taken with several grains of salt, as I have never completed writing anything yet) is that you should make sure you don't fall to any easy fixes. You already have a great plot outline, and if you make sure you know where you're going with the story (outlines outlines outlines!) you should do great. But if you get stuck and go to easily explained convenient fixes, some of which could be incredibly unlikely or stereotypical, you run the risk of falling into cliches.

That's all the advice I've got that hasn't been mentioned already.

     

[–]runevaultNovice Writer 5 points 14 hours ago

You'll almost guaranteed not learn to put together a complete good work this way. I highly recommend at least trying to get a total work out, then figure out WHY it isn't what you want to be and map out a plan to fix it.

There's a reason Gaiman et all talk about the most important task being finishing a work.

      

[–]Conrolder 2 points 13 hours ago

Yeah, don't do what I've done either.

And to u/runevault, I certainly intend to adapt the advice you've just given me, as I have come into several snags through that. But I feel I've overstated how little I've done in the past year and a half, as I have written three short stories and about six hundred pages of notes for a story arc I want to write in that time. While I did stop partway through on several stories (thus, my many thanks on your advice) I have considered everything I've done so far useful on my own personal learning curve.

I feel like any writing anyone does is going to, in some way or another, help them improve it. No matter how shitty or golden the writing may seem to you, the one truly useful part about it is that it teaches you how to write better.

      

[–]runevaultNovice Writer 1 point 12 hours ago

Exactly, though maximum value is finishing and editing (note, I'm still bad on this last front). The best way to learn is get finished and see how what you did panned out.

It's been a hard lesson for me as well, and on the editing side I'm still learning it :)

      

[–]mafoo 4 points 15 hours ago

Don't focus on what not to do. That's a creativity-killer. Just write it out as honestly as you can on your first draft and then go over it critically and look for areas where you might make it more original.

     

[–]Kardlonoc 10 points 15 hours ago

If its Villain vs worser Villains then shes not really a villain but an Anti-Hero. If you want to make it Villain vs worser villain you also need to make a hero or a good side both villains are against. Remember that the Villain is just the hero of his or her own story. Even the "worser" villains believe they are doing right.

In my own books the heroes are outright worse than thier opponents, good or bad. They are more vicious, decictful and unfair but society at large deems them heroes because of thier victories and the small details are polished over. The Hero in a fantasy novel is basically a mass murder who by results of murder did some good for society at large. Villain is often times a murderer which society doesn't benefit from and detracts from society or intends to hurt it. There is a of course a ton overlap to the point when the reality is there are no heroes or villains, just people trying to accomplish things. You should ask yourself why society at large sees your female knight as a villain? Does she murder the kings good men for fun? If she does doesn't some other kingdom or peasants see her as a hero for doing so? These are the questions you need to ask.

She's known for her cruelty towards her enemies and her almost inhuman-like fighting skills

I think this right here is a cliche all unto itself. "Shes a Badass unstoppable warrior who is like totally inhuman and totally cruel and the bestest knight." If that is all to character this is very bland. You need something to offset it. Like I was thinking along the lines that while shes a cruel badass knight shes a sucker for romantic stories of chivalry and princesses and she makes the kid roleplay out these stories with her with her playing the princess and the kid playing the knight or even vice versa. But they are all delusions and she knows it, and she considers her brutal knighting duties "work" while her knightly acting as play. It gives a solid contrast between the reality of the world and the fantasy of stories through the mind of a person who is at ends with effectiveness of violence and cruelty but like the ideals and philosophy of romantic chivalry.

Make sure boy has a flaw as well. Don't be too nice to your characters. Make sure this female knight isn't the best or close to being the best.

     

[–]SuspiciousCurtains 26 points 13 hours ago

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP SAYING WORSER!

      

[–]Fudgefactor7Self-Published Author 7 points 12 hours ago

If I ever write another fantasy story, I'm going to have a chapter called "Worser" just for you. :)

      

[–]Kardlonoc 2 points 11 hours ago

Blame the op!

      

[–]Tonkarz 2 points 6 hours ago

Like I was thinking along the lines that while shes a cruel badass knight shes a sucker for romantic stories of chivalry and princesses and she makes the kid roleplay out these stories with her with her playing the princess and the kid playing the knight

That's just as much a part of the cliche.

or even vice versa.

Now you are on to something.

      

[–]Ares54 1 point 11 hours ago

If he's trying to flip things on their head, which is the impression I'm getting from his synopsis and the blatant statement of tongue-in-cheek, it might play to his favor to make her the bestest of the best knights in the land.

It's easy to make someone fatally flawed and call them a good character because of it. Making her near-Mary-Sue and still being a good character will be quite the challenge, but doing so and it well will run entirely counter to many sword and sorcery books where there are a couple godlike characters that only become more and more perfect as the series goes on (I'm looking at you, Sword of Truth).

If he can make her spectacular, but then figure out some way to effectively subvert that stereotype or at least magnify it to ridiculous levels, it'll make the story that much more of a tongue-in-cheek satire for him to have fun with.

      

[–]crankyoldbag 2 points 16 hours ago

Think about all the things you hate in other books and don't do that. Or take it out later if you find you have done it anyway.

     

[–]Deserak 2 points 15 hours ago

I wouldn't worry too much about how to stand out. It's an old truth that every story has already been written. Just focus on making it awesome and it'll stand out on it's own merits.

     

[–]theworldbystorm 2 points 15 hours ago

Develop complex and interesting characters. Make them realistic- that is, make them about more than just one thing. Ever meet somebody in real life whose personality revolves around a single obsession? You probably hated that person or found them annoying. Fictional characters are no different. We want to see more to their personalities than just "I am a knight, I like fighting".

     

[–]stryker3 1 point 6 hours ago

Oddly enough, your last quote sounds like a line spoken from a much loved character from 8 bit theater. His name is Fighter McWarrior and he loves swords...

"Sword-chucks, yo!" http://www.nuklearpower.com/2001/08/15/episode-068-it-sounds-like-a-good-idea-to-me/

      

[–]theworldbystorm 1 point 59 minutes ago

The comparison honors me.

      

[–]domdest 2 points 14 hours ago

I'm surprised almost no one has said this, but something to remember: science fiction and fantasy can be used to say many things. They can be satire, or social commentary. Ask yourself, do you just want your story to be a story, or do you want to say some message about society and humanity?

     

[–]CrownMule 2 points 14 hours ago

Put as much thought into your characters' flaws as you do their strengths. Excellence and preternatural ability are actually quite boring if not tempered by human flaw. The friction between a character's strengths and weaknesses will lead to interesting complications, unexpected humor, and heartbreak. "Evilness" is not a satisfying flaw, by the way; just as prowess with a sword is not a satisfying strength.

     

[–]Sean_May 9 points 17 hours ago

How do you make your story stand out? Write a better story than the other person.

     

[–]iamadogforreal 4 points 15 hours ago*

I'll be frank, if I think the book is just a vehicle for feminism, then I won't read it. I don't read to get politicized views or agendas with fantasy or sci-fi just being the window dressing to some hastily written social critique. I read for a good story. Your summary is a huge turn off for me. If you want to write about feminism or religion, then write about feminism or religion. Obviously, there can be feminist or religious elements, but if this becomes too much of a focus, its difficult for even masters to pull this trick off, let alone amateurs.

I say focus on characters and stories; not ideologies. Don't bore me, please.

It could be said that its almost a tongue-in-cheek satire on the fantasy genre.

I find fantasy works best if its incredibly sincere and non-self aware. If you're putting random winks and jokes about LOTR or other tropes, then it takes me out of the story.

On second thought, just write it as straight-up humor. You can insert satire of religion, feminism, patriarchal societies, etc easily and without taking the reader out of the story. Sounds like you want to do satire anyway.

Lastly, don't fall into the trope of "120 lbs woman handily fights off multiple 220lbs dudes." Her size and strength, unless its magically enhanced, is a huge limitation. It might be fun to show us how she can overcome fighting off more physically powerful males via novel methods, trickery, wit, etc. I also prefer female warriors written as females, as opposed as written as "men with tits." Realistically writing women is something that gets a lot of spilled ink around here. You should probably look into that as well.

Good luck.

     

[–]mmbates 7 points 13 hours ago

I also prefer female warriors written as females, as opposed as written as men with tits. Realistically writing women is something that gets a lot of spilled ink around here. You should probably look into that as well.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, since writing "men with tits" is actually a really, REALLY good place to start personality-wise. Lots of writers (particularly in fantasy) tend to write women as this entire other species or creature, closer to cats of faeries than humans, and the result is that that shit sucks.

      

[–]ColtonH 4 points 12 hours ago

The problem with writing it as just a man-type personality to make a strong female lead is that sometimes that doesn't work. At all. Does your world have sexism? Gender roles? Patriarchy or matriarchy? Unless it is a totally equal world for both genders, the way a woman is raised will be different than three way a man it's raised in it. Which means she'll behave differently than a man generally.

Plus if it's just that it's a "man with tits" then you have the problem of it implying that women can't be a good, strong character unless they are manly. Why can't the girl enjoy three feminine arts and also be a warrior? Why can't she act based on the way she's expected to by her culture, whether it be by acting how they expect her to our contrary to it (both are acting based on the expectation existing, and both get different results).

Women aren't men biologically note socially. Right or wrong, this shouldn't just be ignored in writing, but explore. Especially to make it more real feeling.

      

[–]mmbates 4 points 12 hours ago

I agree with you, and I think of course that those levels of complexity--how a lifetime of socialization has affected your characters--are really important to examine. I love to see it done well.

But for a beginning writer, assuming 98% similarity between men and women is probably a good way to start. There a shocking number of published, professional authors who seem to come from the "As Good As It Gets" school of thought ("I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability") and write female characters as petulant children who behave more like weird, flighty mythical creatures than people. Authors-who-shall-remain-nameless seem to believe that all women who exist within a patriarchy all faint at the sight of blood, and shriek at the concept of a challenge, and view the world simplistically, and think of nothing except for men and romance and their virginity or lack thereof.

So I think for a relatively new writer, especially one not used to writing women, it's better to begin with similarities and then move to differences.

The differences and complexities you cited are super important to creating a world, but with an overemphasis on those differences, the characterization suffers.

      

[–]ColtonH 2 points 10 hours ago

So I think for a relatively new writer, especially one not used to writing women, it's better to begin with similarities and then move to differences.

I don't personally like this personally. Make characters the natural product of their surroundings, whether the surroundings be in the story or not. If you can picture your character as the other gender and still have them act the same way, you're doing it wrong in my opinion. With most of my characters, male or female, I can't even begin to imagine making them the other gender. Not because it's their defining feature, but because they've been shaped by their gender.

It's not easy to do, but it's better to learn how to write certain characters right from the start. Study how real women and men act and model characters off that. You should have plenty of subjects to study in high school and college, so there's no excuse to not do it.

      

[–]mmbates 2 points 10 hours ago*

I suppose that makes sense. But there are plenty of cases where authors do not do the work you describe of making observations and applying them the fictional worlds. They take a few obvious stereotypes about women which exist in our world and apply them to a disturbing majority of female characters. Women are catty, women are gossips, women are obsessed with clothing, women are obsessed with the goings-on of men, women hate pretty women, women are afraid of the sight of blood... those are things that I see far more often in fictional worlds than I do in the real world.

I think we agree on some level. What I'm trying to say is that in fiction, a lot of authors write women like ephemeral creatures who operate without much regard for human logic. Sometimes it feels as if authors and creators do not understand that women, like men, are equipped with cognitive faculties and logic, and that they might be susceptible to forces of gendering in society, they would still essentially remain complex, thinking people. The authors see attitudes and behaviors of women in the real world, and then rather than assigning them to "that particular woman in my trigonometry class" they assign them to "all women."

In suggesting that authors focus on similarities, I mean to say that it is important for writers to be able to understand their characters fully and completely, male or female, and I think that finding common ground with a character is a good place to begin. Authors who focus on the personhood of women and then consider the effects of gendering on that character are successful.

      

[–]ColtonH 2 points 10 hours ago

I write from a worldbuilding perspective first, so I'm biased. The way roles of race and gender, to me, make a HUGE impact on any character. You're a product of what happened to and around you, which will be influenced by those things in most realistic settings.

But that's just my method of doing it, so I might be in the wrong for expecting others to do it my way.

      

[–]mmbates 1 point 9 hours ago

Nah, man. If you've got a system that works for you, that's great. And if you're writing good characters within that system, that's great. I personally write for character first and then layer in worldbuilding on top and around so perhaps our perspectives just differ.

The fact is that gender and race and class and family and things do have huge effect on people developmentally, and it's great that you detail your characters with an eye to all those things.

I just feel that, on the whole, the fantasy genre puts a LOT of emphasis on the effects of gender (while ignoring the huge impact of things like class and race) to the point that I, a female reader, find it impossible to identify with these alien creatures the author has chosen to dub "women." Successful authors like George R. R. Martin do not ignore gendering, but neither do they dwell on them--Martin's male and female characters are superficially different, but ultimately, they are equally proud, calculating, passionate, selfish, passionate, etc. as one another. In many ways, they're "men with tits," and I relate to them for it.

      

[–]iamadogforreal -4 points 12 hours ago*

and write female characters as petulant children who behave more like weird, flighty mythical creatures than people

I think you really are bringing in your own baggage here. Its not just "man with tits" or "flighty bimbo." Its not hard for authors to avoid the cliches.

Nothing takes me out of the story than some 'girl power' cliche of a warrior woman who just acts exactly like a man, but instead of falling for the cute girl in the end, she instead falls for the cute guy. Its lazy and tired. I get it, female action heroes are a popular fad, but that doesn't make them good. Christ, you could replace Katniss with a dude and you'd barely notice until he kissed Peeta.

This is worse in soceities where people were raised in strict pre-enlightenment patriarchies that typify fantasy medieval worlds. I mean, Camelot isn't exactly Amsterdam.

Its also so sickeningly politically correct to pretend men and women are exactly the same. I think of all the great authors and how their female characters use their upbringing and social skills or femininity or whatever as a powerful tool that brings the character to life and shows us how, even without being macho, she can be powerful. Now its just waif-fu and Stallone in a skirt.

      

[–]mmbates 4 points 12 hours ago*

I'm not saying you need to write all female action heroes as Rambo with a vagina, but there is an equally disturbing trend of writers and creators who hone in too much on the difference between men and women and as a result create women as whiny, flighty children bereft of human logic.

Also, not sure how you exactly wanted Katniss to act, and I'm not sure how Katniss was acting particularly dude-like. There are other action-girl characters who seem to behave in bizarre ways given their upbringing, but I would say Collins does a great job in book 1 of justifying why Katniss behaves in the way she does. She has extensive experience with her bow because her father taught her. She has survival skills because without her hunting, her family would die. She is honed by necessity. She provides for her family because she has no other options. I don't think this is particularly masculine.

      

[–]iamadogforreal 3 points 12 hours ago

Thanks for writing this. I was going to reply with a similar thought. So sick of the PC-friendly "the genders are exactly alike" nonsense. There's so much exploration potential of how men and women use power. Unless they come from some agender society and transcend biology, there will be differences.

      

[–]ColtonH 1 point 10 hours ago

As a pseudo-feminist (I disagree with feminism on too many issues to identify myself as an actual feminist) it honestly seems to me that it's more offensive to say they're exactly alike.

Women and men are in all real societies raised differently, and how you're raised is going to make you act different later in life. That's part of the entire argument feminists have for where oppression comes from - how women and men are raised differently. Why is it that literature shouldn't reflect that?

      

[–]wishwellPT 3 points 15 hours ago

I'll be Dennis then.

      

[–]wigglepiggle 1 point 14 hours ago

Okay, but only if I can be Kevin.

      

[–]wishwellPT 2 points 13 hours ago

You gotta be my sister Deandra, no other way.

      

[–]wigglepiggle 1 point 7 hours ago

Deal.

      

[–]themanifoldcuriosity 0 points 9 hours ago*

I'll be frank, if I think the book is just a vehicle for feminism, then I won't read it. I don't read to get politicized views or agendas with fantasy or sci-fi just being the window dressing to some hastily written social critique. I read for a good story.

This is a toe-curlingly shallow attitude.

Great books are ABOUT something. They teach the reader about the world and himself. If your story doesn't have an agenda or a philosophy, all you're writing is a meaningless soap opera, fit only for the kind of dullards who only consume media based on the frequency of tits, explosions, "shocking" character massacres and other witless forms of pornography.

OP should be commended for using the apparatus of a familiar genre to explore aspects of our society and how we relate to each other. That is, after all, what fantasy/sci-fi was meant in the first place to achieve, before it became a soulless corporate rehash of the same 14 tropes and character archetypes - which is exactly what you're asking him to come out with when you assert that he should write characters without "ideologies".

A character without ideology is nothing. Without an ideology there is no story, only pointless waffle.

      

[–]iamadogforreal 1 point 9 hours ago*

I'm all for high concept writing, but it shouldn't be your first book. I also don't like the idea of a thesis disguised as a novel in general. There's a middle ground here that's achievable, but maybe not for a novice.

That is, after all, what fantasy/sci-fi was meant in the first place to achieve before it became a soulless corporate rehash

This is a false dichotomy here. Its not "high concept" or "trash."

From her description, it sounds like she wants to do satire/high concept more than traditional storytelling, which is fine, but like i suggested above, humor is probably a better medium.

Who knows. Let's stop arguing and let her write her book. Not sure if our back and forth remotely helps the OP's request which was asking for opinions. Id love to see her first 50-100 pages. These questions are hard to answer and we just give our personal biases; which is exactly what i did. Maybe I'm wrong, but without material to critique we're just spinning our wheels over long chewed over arguments like concept vs practical storytelling/writing as activism/using tropes or slaying them/etc.

      

[–]themanifoldcuriosity 0 points 9 hours ago

I'm all for high concept writing, but it shouldn't be your first book.

Really?

Counterpoint: If you don't have the balls to put everything of yourself into everything you create, then you never will. What you come out with might be shit, but at least you tried. As opposed to not trying and still coming out with shit because your story doesn't actually have anything to say.

You go big or you go home.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 5 points 15 hours ago

If she teaches the boy to become a villain, and the story has feminine themes there's only one way to end it.

The boy has to kill the knight at the end, because of something SHE taught him.

It's a great allusion to patriarchy/inherent female oppression and suitably dark enough to get the point across that your world is gritty and happy endings don't happen there.

     

[–]Xephyron 3 points 11 hours ago

And he must take an apprentice of his own! THERE CAN ONLY BE TWO

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 3 points 11 hours ago

Up Vote for a repetitive cycle of cruelty!

      

[–]Xephyron 3 points 11 hours ago

You know what OP's story really needs? More lightsabers.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 2 points 11 hours ago

Wow. I hadn't even thought of that...

Well played, Xephyron, well played.

      

[–]Xephyron 2 points 11 hours ago

Honestly, whenever I write a story I really enjoy pretending it's all in the Star Wars universe on some unincorporated planet. If I get bored, then suddenly a Sith lord lands and starts fucking shit up.

I played Skyrim like this too. I think I may be weird.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 2 points 11 hours ago

Nah, I think you're fine.

Whenever I see a band I don't like, I daydream about monsters coming onstage and eating them.

      

[–]gugulo 1 point 11 hours ago

You didn't know about that?

Usually sith kill their own masters.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 2 points 11 hours ago

I knew, but I just hadn't thought of it that way! It was cool to have my mind blown.

      

[–]Tonkarz 1 point 5 hours ago

Isn't this a thread about avoiding cliches?

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 1 point 4 hours ago

A cliche feminist ending would have her and the boy on equal terms, parting as friends or continuing as companions. That's the feminist happy ending.

Happy endings are a cliche.

      

[–]Tonkarz 1 point 3 hours ago*

So are unhappy endings. And especially the "powerful woman teaches young man and is undone by it". In any case, story elements simplified this much are going to be cliche (or else cliches do not exist at the "happy ending" level of narrative oversimplification).

I'm not saying it has to be a happy ending, but it doesn't have to be a cliche one either.

Nor is what you describe somehow the only way you could have a feminist ending, or even a feminist happy ending. And of course you can have an unhappy feminist ending, you know.

      

[–]AtlanteanSteel 1 point 3 hours ago

You're very right on all accounts, but I think that as long as they don't fall in love the whole pupil-doom thing will be that cliche of an ending. That shit goes back to Greek myth.

      

[–]Paganator 3 points 16 hours ago

I've always wanted a fantasy story that's not epic. Instead of a giant quest all over a huge world that changes the fate of the universe, make it a smaller scale personal story where one person has an interesting situation to deal with. I'd like to read the Pulp Fiction of fantasy -- not everything has to be a massive three-tomes epic.

     

[–]domdest 2 points 14 hours ago

Monument is pretty good and sort of falls into that category. For movies, check out Thirteenth Warrior - sort of epic, but the protagonist is not the hero.

      

[–]The_Vikachu 1 point 11 hours ago

If you're interested in that kind of stuff you should check out The Emperor's Soul by Brandon Sanderson. At its heart it is a story about the protagonist trying to escape while attempting to reconstruct the soul of an emperor. A bit vague, but trust me; it is awesome.

      

[–]Scodo 1 point 10 hours ago

Second this. Emperor's soul is fantastic and can be consumed in a single sitting, AND has a believable female protagonist to boot.

      

[–]dkinneys 3 points 17 hours ago

Make it funny. But not too funny to avoid seriousness, just funny. Like Hitchhiker's Guide. Funny often, but able to have serious moments. This always stands out to me.

     

[–]JLipari 0 points 17 hours ago

Make sure it doesn't suck

     

[–]zyal 1 point 17 hours ago

Is it a sword and sorcery type of fantasea?

     

[–]Indigomist 1 point 16 hours ago

I think the most important thing is the ability to tell a good story.

     

[–]marwynn 1 point 15 hours ago

We're perfectly willing to read, and even accept, cliches as long as it's done well.

It's the delivery that matters.

     

[–]Thonyfst 1 point 15 hours ago

Read as many fantasy novels as you can, and as many books outside the genre as well. Everyone here says avoid cliches or twist them, but you have to know them first. Also check out /r/fantasywriters.

     

[–]ooli 0 points 14 hours ago

sound awesome.

Your post make me realize I have a soft spot for villain protagonist. I liked Pat Bateman in "American Psycho" or Meursault in "the Stranger", almost every racist protagonist from Ellroy, and in Proust my favorite character must be the sarcastic Charlus.

Now I should really try to write about some evil protagonist. Thanks for the inspiration and good luck with your book. Oh, and dont concern yourself too much about clichés. Just write it already! There is a worse thing than a cliché in a book: it's no book at all.

     

[–]JLatos 2 points 12 hours ago

Truth.

      

[–]HentMas 1 point 14 hours ago

not a farmer, not in a pub, not in a tavern, not a BBG that seem weak at the beginning... I dunno, never done it this way before, getting a setting and telling me to work out what could be a cliche seems weird :P

     

[–]fastestguninthewest 1 point 14 hours ago

Say something with your story. Why're you telling this story? What does your story have to say about the world, or the people in it?

     

[–]Likunandi 1 point 14 hours ago

Have it writing like it is on medieval times but plot twist! It's actually in the future.

     

[–]rncrtr 1 point 14 hours ago

Be good at writing, and also, don't write like anything else you've ever seen. Use your imagination. Overuse it. Take it places you're scared to write in b/c no one has done things there.

     

[–]cadian16thPublished Author 1 point 13 hours ago

Make it your own. The reason I think The Name of the Wind is doing so well is Rothfuss didn't feel the need to follow the rules. He invented his own magic system for the books.

     

[–]Angry_Ohm 1 point 13 hours ago

I have no feedback to add other then to say that I actually really like what you've described so far and would definitely pick up your book.

     

[–]Guglio08 1 point 13 hours ago

I don't have anything interesting to add except that I would totally read that, and I don't even really like fantasy.

     

[–]Autodidact2 1 point 13 hours ago

If it truly a satire, I think you use cliches and amp them up until they're hilarious.

     

[–]clarkdd 2 points 13 hours ago

To me, all fantasies are escapist stories. For that reason, all fantasies rely on some unquantifiable force to make the otherwise impossible possible. Take for example The Count of Monte Cristo. This is not your typical fantasy in that it is set against the post French-Revolution which is an actual period of European history. And yet the story is often referred to as a revenge fantasy, which I think is very appropriate. And with that in mind, the unquantifiable force is Dantes' vast fortune.

Now, take a look at Star Wars. Star Wars and Star Trek have always been seen as wildly distinct from each other for good reason. Star Wars is a fantasy (with "The Force" being that unquantifiable thing) whereas Star Trek achieves its many otherwise impossible things through the application of science. Star Wars never applied scientiffic principles; and it is for this reason that Star Wars utterly failed during the prequels. Lucas tried to explain The Force, thus violating the fundamental distinction of the fantasy genre.

If you want to make your fantasy story memorable, you need to have some basic understanding of whatever unquantifiable force makes the otherwise impossible possible. That way, you can make your story consistent such that the audience can accept the magic without feeling like it's a cop-out. And at the same time, you must leave vast postions of it mysterious so that you can achieve the air of wonder that good fantasies simply MUST achieve.

Finally, I think it's important to remember that all stories are about people. The magic, whatever it is, must empower the protagonists. It must not take over the story.

Good luck.

     

[–]Minecraftfinn 1 point 13 hours ago

Obvious foreshadowing has sometimes ruined fantasy stories for me so I would say stay away from that

     

[–]TV-MA-LSV 1 point 13 hours ago

Give readers the experience of being at least one of your characters and your story will be better than 90% of any genre fiction currently on the shelves.

     

[–]Burn0Things 1 point 12 hours ago

Sounds kind of like the manga Claymore

     

[–]Totallyadude 1 point 12 hours ago

Do you already have a first draft? If you don't- don't worry about cliches. Write the story you want to write. Don't worry about it being crappy or wrong or cliched.

After you've gotten everything down, then work on cliches. Since it's a satire, work on making your story witty. Research the themes you want to write about.

     

[–]joeldg 1 point 11 hours ago

Piers Anthony makes a living writing hilarious books that screw with cliches. If you have not read him, do so.

     

[–]MTjonesPublished Author 1 point 11 hours ago

Personally, I think your idea is very good.

If you want to make it a great one, you only need to write what you would want to read.

Avoid the typical cliches that would hate reading in other books. Unless you're making a joke, of course.

I know people say that all the time, but there's a good reason they say it.

Idealistically a writer will be an avid reader. They'll either have shelves of books or lug bags of books to and from the library. Not only do they love to read, but they're on a quest to find the perfect book.

Soon they'll come to the frustrating conclusion that the perfect book does not exist. It remains to be created. So they will begin to write. Combining everything they love, from every tome, volume and book they've ever pawed through to forge a novel.

Now it will take many attempts. Countless starts and stops will happen, ideas will blaze into life and wither and die in the space of a breath and your original idea will be put to the test many times to see if it will withstand the slings and arrows of editors and the public eye.

It's alright, this is the creative process. There's bound to be a bit of chaos. But as long as learning is constant throughout the process, it will be worth it.

Sorry for the wall of text. I can get carried away sometimes . . .

     

[–]littlebrotherissmart 1 point 11 hours ago

If you have to ask, you'll never know.

     

[–]IAMAfortunecookieAMA 1 point 11 hours ago

Develop your voice, and get to know your characters. if it feels natural to you, it'll read more natural to your audience. Even churning up old cliches or predictable plotlines will be fine if your dialogue is truly original.

     

[–]Praxibetel_Ix 1 point 10 hours ago

sorry this is not advice. as some one woh does not read fantasy often I want to know when I can read this story. it sounds fun.

     

[–]SimilarFunction 1 point 10 hours ago

More elves.

     

[–]livetta 1 point 9 hours ago*

The best advice I can give about avoiding clichés is: don't. Instead EDIT THEM OUT IN THE SECOND DRAFT. It's metric ass-tons easier to edit than it is to write in the first place. And I'm not talking grammar edits, either, but large structural edits. So she's a tough knight, going to make a hardened warrior of your young squire character? What don't you like about the way that kind of tale is often told? Focus on writing YOUR VERSION of the story, avoiding the tropes that bother you most, or turning them on their head. When you are done with your first draft, let your story sit and READ ALL THE THINGS YOU CAN IN-GENRE. Let it sit some more, and go read a bunch of non-fiction. Let your readings percolate: think about the worst offenders in terms of cheesy overly-done clichés. What annoys you about them? What makes them seem unreal? Too black and white? Too good to be true? Once you've digested that, pulped it in your writer gizzard, vomit it back out upon your text. It's clean up time. You can never avoid clichés until you go after them once they're already in text. Be as merciless as your female knight character in turning them upside down, excising them completely, or finding ways to undermine them.

Like most everyone else in this thread, I think you've got a solid core. But the bones of a story aren't what usually hides the clichés-- it's the flesh and dressing of a tale that does. The best way I've found is to write all your awful clichés in the first time (because it's inevitable), and burn them out in the second and third pass. The key, then, is identifying them, and you do that with familiarity. Knowing your enemy, knowing your genre.

     

[–]EmpireKhonsu 1 point 9 hours ago

Kill off everyone.

gg

     

[–]jabradley 1 point 9 hours ago

Why avoid cliche? Your concept is already turning one on it's head. Why not embrace them? It'll be fun at least.

If you are hell-bent on avoiding cliche, then I recommend you read as many works as possible which you consider cliche. Know your enemy, so to speak.

     

[–]AvalonBright 1 point 7 hours ago

yet different ideas on feminism

Sorry, I'm already cringing.

     

[–]Psyladine 1 point 7 hours ago

Cliches are hard to boot because they work. They are plain, well-crafted, time-honored and universally adopted standards and ready-made thoughts, ideas, characters, situations and phrasings.

Funny, many writers secretly longing for an 'easy' or 'direct' way to produce a work of any genre has it right in front of them. Sure, it'll be wholly cliche (and wholly someone else's), but it will work, and everyone will recognize it.

But if you want writing that will sizzle instead of bore, and dazzle instead of dull, you need to bring something of yourself to the table. Something personal, something novel. Something unique to yourself. Naturally you'll have it-why else write? And the only way to find that bit of yourself in the writing, is to discard every first, second, third and fifth impulse and notion.

Audiences today have seen, read, heard and rehashed everything. The only thing they haven't seen, because you were never before, is you.

     

[–]nonsensicalmayhem 1 point 6 hours ago

Create authentic characters filled with depth.

     

[–]Tonkarz 1 point 5 hours ago

No offence, but "powerful women are evil" is not feminist or even "different ideas on feminism".

     

[–]kindofserious 1 point 5 hours ago

...almost a tongue-in-cheek satire on the fantasy genre.

Is it satire?

I'm asking because it feels like you added that descriptor as an afterthought, at the last moment. Up to that point, the story didn't really feel like satire.

If it's satire, then that's great. I've only read a few Fantasy novels (none satirical), but I think that "The Princess Bride" and "Your Highness" are good stories to look to in that genre.

Someone mentioned it, but be careful about forsaking your story to make a some broader commentary about feminism or religion. Lots of stories already make statements, of their own volition, through simply being a reflection of the human experience. I don't know that you need to actually try to inject any greater meaning into your novel. Unless you're a skilled and seasoned writer, I'd steer clear of trying to tackle something like that, for now.

     

[–]elos_ 1 point 2 hours ago

Here's my advice:

There are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of fantasy stories and novels out there. Want to know what most of them are there for? So the author can jack off to his own world creation and his own unique fantasy world.

Make a story about a person that just happens to live in a fantasy world. Don't make a story about a fantasy world. That's what makes a story stick out.

     

[–]paulwunderlich 1 point 1 hour ago

It sounds like it'll be a tough journey to keep the story-line consistent with both the character development, moral code evolution/devolution, and of course, your ability to narrate this complex idea seamlessly. You can write about an apple, as long as it's consistent and proeficiently narrated, you're likely to create something valuable.

     

[–]jjspaceman 1 point 14 hours ago

Kill all your main characters.

     

[–]danceswithroninEditor++ 2 points 15 hours ago

Pertinent details. Pauldrons instead of "shoulder armor." Palfreys instead of "horses." Do a little research to ground your work and give it enough realism to make the readers believe it could happen.

Characterization, characterization, characterization. If your audience doesn't care about your characters, your book will just sink into the great sea of genre mediocrity. The reason authors like George R. R. Martin and Ursula le Guin are standouts is because they create people and worlds that folks actually care deeply about. You want to create dramatic situations so awe-inspiring that people will be compelled to turn them into water cooler talk even with those who have no idea what the hell they are talking about. Red Wedding anyone?

Your novel sounds like a great way to explore gray morality. So use that to your advantage. Play with the ideas of what constitutes nobility and honor and good vs. evil in your world. Make your squire a foil to your knight. Have him challenge her ideas on how the world works, and vice versa. Her ideas can win out over his, but don't make him a roll-over. Make her have to work for it.

Cliches in and of themselves are not that bad. You just have to either a) flesh them out to the point that they are no longer standardized, and give them a fresh spin, or b) subvert them entirely.